tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5961255208140513592.post8470102109631804322..comments2023-06-27T10:39:55.321+01:00Comments on progressive-economy@tasc: China (III) - Beijing's scramble for AfricaNat O`Connorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03158117263254241852noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5961255208140513592.post-75398353963382268512010-08-09T16:46:34.638+01:002010-08-09T16:46:34.638+01:00The papers mentioned are available on the TASC we...The papers mentioned are available on <a href="http://www.tascnet.ie" rel="nofollow"> the TASC website</a>.<br /><br />I agree that democracies have the advantage over autoritarian regimes, because we have much more flexible and fluid information flows, which gives us an opportunity to correct public policy mistakes quicker.<br /><br />Curiously enough, when a Finnish cleric introduced Sweden's famous freedom of information law in 1766, he was apparently influenced by the idea (or ideal perhaps) of the Chinese censorate, which was set up in the Tang Dynasty (618 to 907). The "Censorate’s main roles were to scrutinise the government and its officials and to expose misgovernance, bureaucratic inefficiencies and official corruption." You can read <a href="http://members.optusnet.com.au/~slamble/freedom_of_information.html" rel="nofollow">a paper on this here</a>.Nat O`Connorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03158117263254241852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5961255208140513592.post-49804785179934959242010-08-09T08:03:29.901+01:002010-08-09T08:03:29.901+01:00@Michael B,
What is relevant is how the establish...@Michael B,<br /><br />What is relevant is how the established, developed democracies will respond to the rise of China. I am simply querying the validity of extracting aspects of China's 'model' (such as its thumbing its nose at the 'Washington consensus', the role of its SOEs and its high level of fixed investment) largely out of context and applying them to a small open economy in a very different context.<br /><br />Instead of extracting examples from other very different economies and focusing on reams of comparative data (to defend the interests of specific segments in Irish society) it would be far better to take a good hard look at the current economic reality. Ireland didn't and doesn't have a bank resolution regime. Most countries do because they recognise that banks fail at all times and in all places. Ireland's policy and regulatory arrangements should have been extremely tight to compensate for this deficiency. The State and all citizens are now on the hook because of this policy and regulatory failure. And this is imposing a hard funding constraint.<br /><br />This is the harsh and cruel reality. Failure to confront this means that the next step is direct involvement, as in Greece, by the EU/IMF.<br /><br />Btw I am surprised that Nat O'Connor's papers on FoI haven't featured on this site. These recommend some of the governance changes required to get us out of this mess and to prevent a repetition.Paul Huntnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5961255208140513592.post-78421373777294962372010-08-07T15:59:38.942+01:002010-08-07T15:59:38.942+01:00Paul Hunt
I think it strange you find it difficul...Paul Hunt<br /><br />I think it strange you find it difficult to see any relevance from the Chinese experience.<br /><br />Of parmaount importance is the ability of the Chinese authorities, beginning in 1978, to attract foreign capital AND use that investment to build up an indigenous industry of their own. Indigenous Chinese firms now lead the world in certain value-added production, notably green technologies, and are internationally significant in many more, inluding cars, photographic equipment, agricultural machinery etc.<br /><br />It has done this by, amongst other things, massive state investment (currently over 20% of GDP), promoting technology transfer and building indigenous satellite industries on which the foreign MNCs have come to depend.<br /><br />This economy has over 50 years head start on the Chinese, but not achieved as much. <br /><br />Not relevant at all, then.Michael Burkenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5961255208140513592.post-88320770272253554152010-08-04T08:08:30.394+01:002010-08-04T08:08:30.394+01:00@Paul Sweeney,
I am taking the liberty of address...@Paul Sweeney,<br /><br />I am taking the liberty of addressing you directly, even if you choose to use the third person in response to me - was it something I wrote?<br /><br />I agree that it is very important to learn more about other countries - in particular those that are having an increasing global impact. All I am questioning are the validity and relevance of specific economic policy recommendations for a small open economy that draw on, what you admit is a limited understanding of, a very different political and policy regime.Paul Huntnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5961255208140513592.post-85474837165438671732010-08-03T11:59:14.303+01:002010-08-03T11:59:14.303+01:00Paul Hunt says “I fear your assessment of the cost...Paul Hunt says “I fear your assessment of the costs and benefits of China's involvement in Africa is seriously deficient.” I was just putting up a short version of what I know of Chinese involvement in Africa as I think we really need to focus more attention on this important country. But I think it is clear that I am very sceptical of that involvement. I would love to have the time to read Collier’s book and to other books I have heard of and which some have recommended to me and to Michael’s references too.paul sweeneynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5961255208140513592.post-76296517639814815022010-07-31T12:10:20.962+01:002010-07-31T12:10:20.962+01:00I'm sure we can argue the toss about the virtu...I'm sure we can argue the toss about the virtues and deficiencies of the Chinese economic and political model until the cows come home. I've observed aspects of the process at first hand in both China and Africa. But leaving that aside, I'm still struggling to see the relevance of the policies of this authoritarian, mercantilist regime to a small wet island with a stable, but malfunctioning, democracy and a deeply distressed economy on the periphery of the EU.Paul Huntnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5961255208140513592.post-35794462426132106382010-07-30T20:37:45.863+01:002010-07-30T20:37:45.863+01:00Paul S,
There is a great deal of misinformation a...Paul S,<br /><br />There is a great deal of misinformation about China' role in Africa, often laced with accusations of 'imperialism' from precisely those countries who have robbed the continent and despoilt it. This includes the US, the strongest behind-the-scenes supporter of the Aprtheid regime in S. Africa, with Thatcher's Britain performing the public role.<br /><br />This is a very useful website. http://www.chinaafricarealstory.com/2010/05/chinas-285-billion-deal-in-nigeria-how.html<br /><br />I've highlighted one particular piece, but there are plenty. The creation of a Nigerian-owned refinery is China's side of the deal, for which it gets much needed oil. But no Western firm (eg Shell) has ever offered that, anywhere, in Africa, because it is in refining and other upstream activities that the profits are made.<br /><br />Where the West for decades has offered no more than Swiss bank accounts, coups and starvation, China builds railways, roads and refineries. <br /><br />I look forward to your piece on the SOEs, although these should really be called Collectively-Owned Enterprises, as Western observers often overlook that much of the State sector is actually held by regional and local authorities as well as other institutions, including the army.<br /><br />The most authoritative work on ownership is Nolan's China's Rise, Russia's Fall.<br /><br />Here is a long theoretical piece explaining China's economic performance by reference to its superior investment rates, which is a lesson applicable to all economies<br /> http://ablog.typepad.com/key_trends_in_the_world_e/2009/09/the-asian-and-chinese-economic-growth-models-implications-of-modern-findings-on-economic-growth.htmlMiichael Burkenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5961255208140513592.post-65443896214211822272010-07-30T14:57:50.315+01:002010-07-30T14:57:50.315+01:00I can understand your concern, from a TU perspecti...I can understand your concern, from a TU perspective, about the exploitation of workers, but I fear your assessment of the costs and benefits of China's involvement in Africa is seriously deficient. Although you mention some of the downsides, the current and future costs to Africa are likley to be far greater than the continued exploitation of workers - bad and all as that might be.<br /><br />Paul Collier, probably the foremost authority on economic and political development in Africa provided an excellent assessment of the situation China is exploting in his books "Bottom Billion", and "Wars, Guns and Votes: Democracy in Dangerous Places". His latest book "The Plundered Planet: How to Reconcile Prospeity with Nature" provides an excellent example:<br />"In December 2008 a coup in Guinea installed a young captain as president... The following September the regime shot dead 157 people gathered to protest at the lack of democracy. The very next month a Chinese consortium struck a $7bn (£4.7bn) deal with the government for resource extraction: plunder writ large."<br /><br />I look forward to your next instalment on what the Chinese government's policies on its SOEs can teach the apparently wayward Irish government.Paul Huntnoreply@blogger.com